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good afternoon

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and good evening to some of you

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um i know i have a lot of uh some

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viewers

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out um across the pond to where it's

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probably

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i don't know seven o'clock is that right

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uh it's one o'clock here we have a

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pretty cool

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show um that we're gonna have today

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i will be the only one not from

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england so that's a good start

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um and yeah so i'm looking very much

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forward to it

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we have nick cook today he has an

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awesome documentary a great book

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so i i look forward to um just picking

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his brain

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um and talking about all things

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whatever uap i think he said it best

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in his tweet uh uap consciousness and

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whatever else comes up

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related or not so

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yeah um i will be back in a second

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[Music]

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so

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[Music]

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uh yes anna you noticed i changed the

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music

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are you a fan of the other song it's

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good to know that stuff

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you know i can't just keep bouncing

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ideas off of my own brain

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i'll get nowhere so yeah without further

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ado we have an amazing

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guest i will not keep you waiting any

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longer

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um mr nick cook

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our you sir i am extremely well thanks

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sean how are you

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i'm pretty good yeah i'm great thank you

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so much for joining us today

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thanks for having me on yeah my pleasure

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um

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first thing that i kind of want to ask

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you

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is um

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[Music]

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is this secret military deck

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[Laughter]

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well the uap report says that it's not

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so it can't be can it

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well true you know it's a really

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interesting question to explore

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and i think we should explore it um

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because what your government what what

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all of our governments tell us

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need not necessarily be the truth uh

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and i i guess i probably made a career

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out of exploring well certainly when i

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was a defense journalist

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exploring the sort of hinterland between

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that

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uh sort of um the white world of open

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military technology then there is a sort

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of grey world and then there is a black

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world and then there is something that

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lies even beyond that so we can sort of

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explore that

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i think that might be fruitful uh as

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part of the discussion

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right well i think it's kind of um i'm

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not sure if everybody's landed on this

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but i have myself

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that there are many different reasons

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or things causes for what people are

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seeing

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um i doubt it's one thing or another

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like it's just uavs or it's just drones

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or it's just

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foreign you know are you in agreement

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with that that is probably at least

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multiple sources

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for for what we're seeing oh yeah um

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uh as uh somebody i may have been jack

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vale

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said uh if this turns out just to be

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aliens even that's gonna be pretty dull

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i think it is a really multifarious

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phenomenon

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and that makes it of course highly

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complex

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and it makes it beguiling and teasing

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and those may all be elements

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that are bound up in the phenomenon

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maybe they are supposed to be all of

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those things

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and pulling us forward in a sense

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into some new understanding about what

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reality is

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about who we are you know and where we

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where we currently sort of reside in

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in science paradigm terms so you know i

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think yeah i think you're right i think

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it's all those things

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yeah um it's probably

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a good cause for a concern that they may

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not be able to tell the difference

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um that you've done so much uh good

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research

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on you know secret projects dark

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projects going back to

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the foo fighters and german v1 and all

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that

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stuff

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um and it is clear that nazi um

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scientists basically

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were responsible for our aerospace

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program

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um and

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you know what i'm talking about in

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particular in your documentary is

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is when the cia was basically busted um

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you know encouraging our belief in ufos

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so that they could have their covert

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program

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do you think they're taking advantage of

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something that's real

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or just making it up all together

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i definitely think that they are taking

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advantage of something that is real

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um when you have a

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complex multifarious phenomenon

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along the lines that we have just

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discussed

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it becomes something in which and around

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which

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you hide stuff i mean that is that there

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are

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disadvantages extraordinary

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disadvantages to the military

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and the intelligence community in not

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knowing what this is

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and we could debate that you know do

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they know

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what this phenomenon as

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touched on in the unclassified version

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of the uap report is

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um or or do they not and i think there

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is a great case for saying that actually

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you know we are we often ascribe huge

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knowledge to our military intelligence

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communities

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but in some areas they may be just as

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much in the dark as we are

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and if you examine the language of the

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uap report

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certainly the unclassified version we've

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all seen

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there are strong suggestions that it

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does not understand

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the phenomenon so uh

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so that's one thing but the other thing

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that you just brought up

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sean is you know in that

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gray area of lack of knowledge does that

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actually confer a utility and the

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utility

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being can you hide stuff within it and

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the answer is yes you can

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and that is the advantage of having

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something that is gray and unknown

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at least you can tuck stuff into it and

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as you also referred to

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there is precedent for that um back in

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the 1950s and 1960s when

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classified programs like the sr-71

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blackbird which was a very high-flying

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uh fast-flying spy plane that looked

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unusual and of course was hidden

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um it there was a move by the cia

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to promote ufo reports so that that tech

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could be hidden behind

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uh raising again the legitimate question

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of

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is there tech at the moment whatever the

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uap report

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says that

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it would uh behoove the intelligence

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community in the u.s

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to hide stuff behind uh and

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the answer is almost certainly yes

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um despite its denials so you know um

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this uh this is as it has ever been and

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i suspect will ever continue to be

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yeah i i think you know that your

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documentary actually kind of opened my

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eyes a little bit to that

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and it's interesting because i've been

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going over some of

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um all my research lately has been back

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in the 50s

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um and i've read that document

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that you source in that movie about the

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psychological warfare

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the other thing that they were concerned

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about

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or wanted to find out is the capability

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of being

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able to use it against their enemies and

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vice versa

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well yeah um

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they want to introduce outlandish

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concepts

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perhaps too early in the conversation

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but surely but what the hell

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you know let's see and if

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it's just pad to uh out there then you

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know reign me back in

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but um i think

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you know we need to project ahead we

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need

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to think uh

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not in terms of how we presently see

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technology in military technology

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but let's use our imaginations a little

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bit let's

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go forward in time and

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postulate as to what might be possible

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now a little bit about my background um

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i was

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with a magazine called jane's defense

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weekly

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it i was the aerospace editor of that

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magazine it gave me fantastic access

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i was uh granted access to

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uh defense officials at a pretty senior

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level on both sides of the pond

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uh and um you know

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within that privilege i got sort of um

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great access to

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information but i'm also a novelist

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i'm i write fiction so i have there are

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two sides of my brain

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there's a left hand the left-hand

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hemisphere crunches data and stuff

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the right-hand side is perhaps a little

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bit more creative

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and and postulates and goes out there if

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i put those two together

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what do i come up with i come up with

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scenarios that allow me perhaps to look

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out five ten or fifteen years and go

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what would the military find useful

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that it can do then that it can't do now

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and one of the things that has been

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touched on

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by the likes of chris mellon and lou

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elizondo

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is reality bending we

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it would be useful i think to militaries

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and

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military intelligence communities to be

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able to

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shift the stuff of reality to

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um confuse us uh but predominantly

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confuse

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um our enemies uh whoever they may be

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and as fantastic as that sounds

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i think that we are getting uh

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starting to get to grips with some tools

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of science that will allow

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us and when i say us i mean military

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intelligence communities

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to be able to do that um how is that

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going to look

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well it might look a little bit like

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inception um it might

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allow um uh military intelligence

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communities

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uh to wage war with each other

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um a sort of uh a hybrid war

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i guess would be the um parlance of

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those communities today

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that would bend reality enough to

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allow individuals and perhaps whole

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communities

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to doubt what they are perceiving to

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actually

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uh uh be confused about the

291
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:15,519
the the screen on which normal reality

292
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:16,880
is projected

293
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:19,920
so um i think all of this

294
00:12:24,310 --> 00:12:22,880
falls within the remit of that uap

295
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:24,320
report uh

296
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:26,639
it may be within the lines of it and not

297
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:27,600
explicit

298
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:30,320
but i think it's there and if it isn't

299
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:31,279
explicit

300
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:34,480
it soon will be wow that's

301
00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:37,360
uh did are there any hints at that sort

302
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:38,240
of technology

303
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:41,360
existing yeah yeah for sure

304
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:47,910
well we i think we all recognize that um

305
00:12:51,590 --> 00:12:49,839
you know lou elizondo and chris mellon

306
00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:51,600
are plugged in i mean you know they've

307
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:52,079
both

308
00:12:57,030 --> 00:12:55,200
had careers that um

309
00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:57,040
have allowed them extraordinary access

310
00:13:00,550 --> 00:12:58,480
to data um

311
00:13:03,269 --> 00:13:00,560
i respect both of them hugely i think

312
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:03,279
they are doing a phenomenal job

313
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:06,320
in um opening up

314
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,079
the discussion of uap ufos as

315
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:12,320
you know we all used to call call them

316
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:14,000
and some of us still do

317
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:17,440
uh that um has allowed this to be

318
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,160
discussed

319
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,200
rationally sanely and

320
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,519
without fear or favor which it wasn't

321
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:25,200
when i was a journalist i mean if i

322
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:26,560
mentioned this stuff

323
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:28,800
when i had been at jane's defense weekly

324
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:30,320
i would have been fired

325
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:32,560
simple as that which is why i actually

326
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:34,079
had to conduct

327
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:37,839
my interests in this area um in secret

328
00:13:41,509 --> 00:13:40,320
and and yeah i wrote a book lou well

329
00:13:45,990 --> 00:13:41,519
actually

330
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:46,000
chris mellon particularly has touched on

331
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:48,480
this whole thing of reality bending um

332
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:50,480
it figured actually in a slide that i

333
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:51,199
think

334
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:55,360
had come out of atip um the uh

335
00:14:00,150 --> 00:13:58,720
slide nine exact slide nine slide nine

336
00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:00,160
goes into all of this

337
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:02,240
um and it doesn't presuppose that it's

338
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:03,279
fictional it

339
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:05,440
it actually makes it abundantly clear

340
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:06,959
that it is real

341
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,399
and on the uh uh uh

342
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:12,480
and if not actually you know sort of

343
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,680
current tech

344
00:14:16,949 --> 00:14:16,000
then certainly on the edges of what is

345
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,959
achievable

346
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:19,199
and the moment that sort of stuff comes

347
00:14:23,269 --> 00:14:20,160
out in public

348
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:23,279
then we need to wake up and we need to

349
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:24,240
listen to

350
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:27,519
what it is saying and actually we know

351
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:28,639
already anyway

352
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:30,720
that certainly what the russians were

353
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:33,600
doing way back in the soviet era so

354
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:38,160
you know almost well 30 years ago

355
00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,959
that that they were playing around with

356
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:42,079
psychotronics

357
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:45,120
as it's called that um does shift and

358
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:46,560
alter perception

359
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:49,839
uh to to bend reality in that sense

360
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:53,600
so this was achievable to a degree

361
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,399
um some time ago and and but now it

362
00:15:01,829 --> 00:14:58,560
seems to be a part of the

363
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:01,839
uh uh threat set if that is a

364
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:04,880
an expression that um

365
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:07,120
that that now has pulled this into the

366
00:15:11,269 --> 00:15:07,920
foreground

367
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:11,279
of what is out there and achievable

368
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,279
as a as a writer as a fiction writer how

369
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:17,760
how do you imagine that's done with uh

370
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,040
with a drug

371
00:15:24,069 --> 00:15:22,320
or you know that seems

372
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,079
like how would you even bend someone's

373
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:27,760
reality you would have to almost uh

374
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:30,240
would an alter their perception other

375
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:31,839
than a drug would you use some sort of

376
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:34,000
chip or something

377
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:37,120
it's bizarre well there are there there

378
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:38,160
would be and there

379
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:49,269
well if we go back just just to a

380
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:50,399
passive means

381
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:53,519
of monitoring reality that

382
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,560
some of your viewers and listeners

383
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:58,079
might be familiar with which is remote

384
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:00,160
viewing so back in

385
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:04,000
the 1970s the cia

386
00:16:09,829 --> 00:16:07,680
uh and and subsequently the the military

387
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:09,839
u.s military launched a program called

388
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:10,800
remote viewing

389
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:13,839
which enabled i guess you know in sort

390
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:15,199
of popular parlance you would call

391
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:19,600
psychics to be able to acquire data that

392
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:22,399
isn't normally acquirable from

393
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:24,399
technology means or from spies

394
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,800
you know like james bond or spy

395
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:28,399
satellites

396
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:32,320
but but using perception

397
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:36,160
uh to acquire data that

398
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,759
couldn't normally be accessed so you

399
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,000
know stuff for example that

400
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:42,160
would might be hidden in a safe but

401
00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:44,880
which would be perceivable to a psychic

402
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,399
um this was done um i had

403
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,959
the good fortune to i have the good

404
00:16:54,069 --> 00:16:52,560
fortune to know several of the people

405
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:54,079
who worked on

406
00:17:01,550 --> 00:16:57,759
that program i actually worked

407
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:01,560
um and have actually recently published

408
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:04,000
posthumously and that's with my

409
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:05,520
co-partner on this

410
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:07,439
who was a chap called ingo swan ingo

411
00:17:11,110 --> 00:17:08,720
swann was

412
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:11,120
um one of the founders of remote viewing

413
00:17:15,829 --> 00:17:11,919
uh on

414
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:15,839
on the psychic front um ingo's

415
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:19,120
family asked me some uh

416
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:22,640
years ago whether i would uh co-author a

417
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:23,600
book with

418
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,480
ingo um in the sense that they had a

419
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,919
number of

420
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:29,760
lost manuscripts of ingo's that needed

421
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:31,440
to be sort of pulled together

422
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:33,919
and i worked on those manuscripts and

423
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:35,360
and edited them

424
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:38,960
and the result was a book that came out

425
00:17:43,110 --> 00:17:41,280
in uh last year in august last year

426
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:43,120
called resurrecting the mysterious

427
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,200
that goes deeply into ingo's

428
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:50,480
very rational discussion

429
00:17:57,510 --> 00:17:53,919
of the nature of reality

430
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:57,520
and in it it is clear

431
00:18:02,390 --> 00:18:00,640
that if you can

432
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:02,400
bend reality as itself as we were saying

433
00:18:06,230 --> 00:18:03,840
earlier then

434
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:06,240
you you you do distort the way we

435
00:18:09,669 --> 00:18:07,440
perceive it

436
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:09,679
so there are numerous ways of doing that

437
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,760
i mean the passive way of monitoring it

438
00:18:16,549 --> 00:18:13,360
is through remote viewing

439
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:16,559
but there may be active ways of actually

440
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:20,400
bending reality and uh

441
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:22,960
psychotronics that these russian

442
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:24,320
scientists were playing around with as

443
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:25,440
long ago as

444
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:28,320
half a century ago maybe one way of

445
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:29,280
doing that

446
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,840
but you know individually of course sean

447
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:33,600
there are other ways and psychedelics is

448
00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:34,400
one of them

449
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,320
um if uh if if you

450
00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:41,200
uh ingest not that i have but if you

451
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:41,600
ingest

452
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:47,669
i wouldn't i wouldn't go near that stuff

453
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:50,240
you know um

454
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:53,520
but you know magic mushrooms lsd

455
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:57,840
um uh and and uh other forms of

456
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:01,679
um psychedelics uh have the capacity to

457
00:19:06,710 --> 00:19:02,640
allow us to

458
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:06,720
to perceive reality differently

459
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:09,760
and in those reality states what is

460
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:12,400
interesting i think is that a lot of

461
00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:12,880
people

462
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:16,160
who come to those reality states from

463
00:19:21,029 --> 00:19:17,440
different directions

464
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:21,039
often report the same kinds of things um

465
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:24,320
encountering entities with whom they

466
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:28,080
uh have you know some sort of um

467
00:19:32,230 --> 00:19:31,200
discourse or or interaction with um that

468
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,240
often

469
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:34,320
reveals sort of what i would call

470
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:35,440
vertical data

471
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:38,640
you know about sure um about about

472
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:41,840
what they are encountering so endlessly

473
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:43,039
fascinating

474
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:45,440
and if there's one thing i know about

475
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,559
the military and the military

476
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:48,559
intelligence community from my time

477
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:51,600
having written about it um

478
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:55,280
as a journalist it was if there

479
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:58,000
is something that is possible if you can

480
00:20:01,990 --> 00:19:58,640
inject

481
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:02,000
money into uh investigating that thing

482
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:03,280
that is possible

483
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:05,760
then uh particularly the u.s military

484
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,360
and intelligence communities

485
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:10,640
will engage in studying it so i have no

486
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,520
doubt at all

487
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,960
that all of this is being looked at

488
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:14,960
right now right yeah and

489
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,799
even if you perceived it as a foreign

490
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:18,480
threat well that could be yeah your

491
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:20,240
excuse to put a bunch of money into it

492
00:20:24,870 --> 00:20:21,520
and investigate really

493
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:24,880
yeah for sure absolutely yeah and notice

494
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:28,400
notice the the wording of the uap

495
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:31,440
report couched very much in that

496
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,720
threat language um and

497
00:20:38,230 --> 00:20:36,320
you know there's been a lot of talk

498
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:38,240
about that i've had i heard

499
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:41,440
i think i heard lou elizondo talking to

500
00:20:46,070 --> 00:20:42,880
you about it the other day

501
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:46,080
that they're you know there's a lot of

502
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,200
criticism about that threat language

503
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:51,280
and i certainly don't believe that it

504
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:52,400
should be hyped

505
00:20:56,149 --> 00:20:55,520
because that doesn't help anyone but it

506
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,159
does

507
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:58,400
we should never forget also that you

508
00:21:00,789 --> 00:21:00,159
know military intelligence communities

509
00:21:05,029 --> 00:21:00,799
whatever they

510
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:05,039
may get up to outside of their remit

511
00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:07,919
their remit states that they are there

512
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:08,320
to

513
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,520
protect us ultimately from threat so if

514
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:13,600
there is a threat inherent in this

515
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:17,200
it should be examined as part of that um

516
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:20,240
charter that they have so you know that

517
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:21,360
side of it

518
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:24,880
i don't negate or deny i mean

519
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,120
it should be studied but by the same

520
00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:28,960
token nor should it be

521
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:36,470
we have a special guest i'm going to

522
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:38,480
bring into the room right now

523
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:41,200
uh he's become a dear friend of mine uh

524
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:43,120
when i'm in a good mood

525
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:44,880
i'm just kidding no he's he's a great

526
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:47,039
person and i am

527
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:50,159
uh super glad he is showing up today

528
00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:52,400
vinnie how are you hello there hi can

529
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:54,000
you guys hear me okay

530
00:21:57,430 --> 00:21:56,640
yeah i can hear you very very nice to

531
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:57,440
meet you nick

532
00:22:01,029 --> 00:22:00,400
it's a pleasure you too vinnie you too

533
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:01,039
so let me

534
00:22:07,750 --> 00:22:04,799
uh reset the room here quick right uh

535
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:07,760
we're here with nick cook um and we are

536
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:08,799
talking

537
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:10,400
you know i don't even know what category

538
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:11,919
of stuff this is but we were talking

539
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:13,679
about psychotronics

540
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:16,880
um and just the capability of

541
00:22:21,830 --> 00:22:20,000
secret programs to be in the middle of

542
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,840
all this uap stuff

543
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,240
um and we have vinnie now here joining

544
00:22:27,909 --> 00:22:26,000
us from the disclosure team

545
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,919
thank you very much yeah it's my

546
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:29,840
pleasure i'm glad to have both you guys

547
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:30,240
on

548
00:22:36,950 --> 00:22:33,360
uh why

549
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:36,960
why don't you ask mr mr cook a question

550
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:39,840
i've got a few notes actually lined up

551
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:40,880
nick first of all

552
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:43,200
a big fan of your work um the

553
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:45,600
documentary you made back in 2005

554
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:49,360
uh great piece of work um um

555
00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:51,440
thank you my first comment and i'm sorry

556
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:52,480
i didn't hear the start of your

557
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:53,200
interview so

558
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:55,440
if you've gone over this please just say

559
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:57,039
so and we can skip on it but

560
00:23:02,149 --> 00:22:59,840
i read an article that um a writer

561
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:02,159
stated that 20 years ago you broke

562
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:04,480
open the secret world of aerospace black

563
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:09,750
well i that that's kind of them to say

564
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:10,320
it and

565
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:13,600
i wouldn't uh

566
00:23:21,669 --> 00:23:17,760
what well what i would say is that

567
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,679
i was lucky enough to be um at my desk

568
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:23,520
as a defense journalist at james defense

569
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:26,159
weekly at a time when

570
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:29,200
uh it was the sort of the beginning

571
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:32,080
of the results of that ramp up in

572
00:23:37,029 --> 00:23:33,360
reagan-era defense

573
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:37,039
spending in the black world that

574
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:39,280
we hadn't seen the results of it until

575
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:40,880
we weren't starting to see the results

576
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:41,440
of it

577
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:44,640
until the sort of early

578
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:48,640
to late 80s um

579
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:51,279
i had a colleague uh who worked with me

580
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:52,720
called bill sweetman

581
00:23:57,590 --> 00:23:55,679
um at james and and i've got to give

582
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:57,600
credit to bill i mean bill

583
00:24:01,110 --> 00:24:00,400
really he did break open that sort of

584
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:01,120
world

585
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:04,720
i i was reading about bill's stuff in

586
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:07,840
in the late 70s and the early 80s

587
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:11,039
when the science that had

588
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:14,159
started to give clues to breakthroughs

589
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:15,440
like stealth

590
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,640
right um had sort of emerged in pockets

591
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:20,000
of the white world

592
00:24:25,269 --> 00:24:22,880
and you know bill was like this sort of

593
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:25,279
aerospace version of sherlock holmes

594
00:24:29,029 --> 00:24:27,760
who was just going around picking up all

595
00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:29,039
of this evidence

596
00:24:33,190 --> 00:24:31,360
and you know actually sort of harking

597
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:33,200
back to a conversation that sean and i

598
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:34,159
were having about

599
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:37,200
15 minutes ago um putting those clues

600
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:38,720
together to go

601
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:41,679
what might we expect to see emerging out

602
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:42,960
of the black world

603
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,159
given these clues in the stealth arena

604
00:24:50,470 --> 00:24:48,240
and bill put that together brilliantly

605
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:50,480
and then i sort of came along

606
00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:52,080
as the new kid on the block and i really

607
00:24:56,549 --> 00:24:54,640
tagged on to bill's coattails

608
00:24:58,149 --> 00:24:56,559
but you know i was lucky enough to work

609
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,159
with him and then i did went off and did

610
00:25:02,789 --> 00:25:00,480
stuff independently so

611
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,799
you know i camped outside area 51 in the

612
00:25:08,230 --> 00:25:04,880
early 90s

613
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:08,240
which was uh which was fun and sort of a

614
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:08,640
bit

615
00:25:12,310 --> 00:25:10,470
sort of butt clenching as well you know

616
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:12,320
[Laughter]

617
00:25:20,470 --> 00:25:15,840
on very dark march nights um but

618
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:20,480
uh it it was it was a time of

619
00:25:24,549 --> 00:25:23,440
uh of of of that emergence of that sort

620
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,559
of technology

621
00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:26,240
and one of the other rumors that i did

622
00:25:29,190 --> 00:25:28,000
touch on in that documentary you

623
00:25:33,269 --> 00:25:29,200
mentioned vinnie

624
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:33,279
uh was a plane called aurora

625
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:36,320
and aurora his uh

626
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,000
was postulated in the late 80s early 90s

627
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:42,080
to be a replacement for the sr-71

628
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,120
blackbird the the the cia

629
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:47,600
air force spy plane um there'd been

630
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,679
reports about it there's lots of witness

631
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:51,440
testimony and sightings

632
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:54,880
but you know could we pin any evidence

633
00:26:02,149 --> 00:25:58,320
on aurora actually really existing well

634
00:26:03,909 --> 00:26:02,159
no but the evidence was just as good

635
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,919
as the evidence had been for early

636
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:05,679
sightings the stealth fighter

637
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:08,080
yes but by then i think the black world

638
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:09,600
had got itself into a

639
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:12,320
really rather dark hole which was a sort

640
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:13,679
of truth hole

641
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,440
um it had found a way of denying the

642
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,279
existence of the self-fighter program by

643
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,200
using mealy-mouthed words

644
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:22,799
no there is no such thing as a stealth

645
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:24,880
fighter well yes it was it wasn't a

646
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:26,640
stealth fighter we got that wrong

647
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,960
it was a stealth attack aircraft so

648
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:30,080
semantics

649
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:32,240
enabled them to deny it all and they're

650
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,600
still using them

651
00:26:36,870 --> 00:26:35,840
oh yeah they learned their lesson about

652
00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:36,880
the stealth fighter

653
00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:38,559
and so when reporters started to ask

654
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:40,480
about aurora they were very careful to

655
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:41,440
ask

656
00:26:45,510 --> 00:26:44,080
uh using phraseology that wouldn't allow

657
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:45,520
the pentagon and

658
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,200
intelligence agencies off the hook so

659
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:48,799
easily so

660
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:52,000
um you know which which which they and

661
00:26:58,149 --> 00:26:55,440
we we did um and every which way

662
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:58,159
they tried to they ducked out of it the

663
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:59,520
intelligence community and the

664
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:01,279
defense community by saying there is no

665
00:27:04,870 --> 00:27:03,039
such aircraft

666
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:04,880
and i think that actually gets us back

667
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:06,080
into the uap thing

668
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:09,200
there has been so much denial

669
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:12,320
about that phenomenon

670
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,080
that it leaves some areas of government

671
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,720
and of the intelligence and defense

672
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:20,480
communities very exposed

673
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,399
as to what they've said this stuff isn't

674
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:24,240
real doesn't exist never has

675
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:27,120
isn't a threat what it clearly is so who

676
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:28,640
do you hold accountable

677
00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:31,760
for that level of information

678
00:27:34,789 --> 00:27:34,159
no absolutely scientists and government

679
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:34,799
i'm going to bring

680
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:37,520
also one more person real quick his name

681
00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:38,320
is

682
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:40,960
graham randell how are you hello how are

683
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:42,000
you

684
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:45,039
hi graham good hello i had to find my

685
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,080
spot to bring in

686
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:49,120
that was the best i could do sorry i

687
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:50,640
didn't want to interrupt the flow

688
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:52,480
hello nick it's it's an honor to uh to

689
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:54,159
talk to you thank you

690
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:56,159
good to meet you graeme good to meet you

691
00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:58,159
yeah we were just talking about uh

692
00:28:01,669 --> 00:28:00,720
stealth and all that which is another

693
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:01,679
thing that

694
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:03,360
correct me if i'm wrong came from nazi

695
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:04,799
scientists

696
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:07,440
well yeah you're absolutely right it it

697
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,159
it did

698
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:11,120
um and you know i mean i'm sorry i could

699
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:13,440
get endlessly nerdy about this

700
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:22,549
yeah i read a book uh as i mentioned

701
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,840
earlier called the hunt for zero points

702
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,200
and the humber zero point

703
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:27,840
went into some of that uh those aspects

704
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:28,480
of of

705
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:30,080
technology that the germs had come up

706
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,960
with but one thing actually i had not

707
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:34,880
uncovered at the time i wrote the hump

708
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:36,080
zero point which came out

709
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:39,760
god 20 years ago unbelievably um

710
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:42,880
was a really interesting facet of that

711
00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:45,360
whole german stealth thing

712
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,880
which is uh at the end of the war

713
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:51,120
as everyone knows the allies went in

714
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:52,559
they plundered german

715
00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:55,120
tech secrets and then they sort of took

716
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:56,960
them back and buried them away and some

717
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:58,000
emerged as

718
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,039
you know rocket programs so you know

719
00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:03,120
even the nasa moon program

720
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:06,240
really owes its sort of um success in

721
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:09,360
many ways to the early genesis of what

722
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:11,200
the germans were up to venevon brown and

723
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:12,880
others but there was other stuff that

724
00:29:15,669 --> 00:29:14,720
was much more obscure that sort of just

725
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,679
got buried

726
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,080
and put into deep dark vaults a little

727
00:29:22,310 --> 00:29:20,000
bit like i always imagine it

728
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,320
that final scene in in raiders of the

729
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:24,240
lost ark when

730
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,000
tucked away into um a uh you know

731
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:29,919
massive warehouse with sort of don't

732
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,600
open for 500 years

733
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,159
stamped on it and a lot of that sort of

734
00:29:37,029 --> 00:29:35,840
metaphorically was what happened to the

735
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:37,039
german science

736
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,080
um stealth being one of them the brits

737
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,720
actually found stealth to be very

738
00:29:47,110 --> 00:29:44,320
interesting

739
00:29:47,669 --> 00:29:47,120
and they did quite a lot of work on it

740
00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:47,679
and

741
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:50,760
a a civil servant called grant dawson in

742
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:52,960
1961 i think

743
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:54,960
packaged everything that the brits knew

744
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,000
about stealth

745
00:29:59,669 --> 00:29:58,080
into a report called the dawson report

746
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,679
stamped it top secret

747
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:01,679
and then guess what sent it to our

748
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:03,120
allies the americans

749
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:06,880
so we never used that stuff

750
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:09,760
but the americans picked up on you guys

751
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:11,679
picked up on

752
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,039
uh on all of that that research

753
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:18,000
and actually make use some of it to

754
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:18,960
kickstart

755
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:22,320
sorts of

756
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:26,799
texts and secrets exist and they go back

757
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:29,600
decades and we can pin that on you know

758
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:31,520
what i would call real stuff

759
00:30:37,510 --> 00:30:35,200
well i i think the time has come to say

760
00:30:38,710 --> 00:30:37,520
that the the elephant in the room

761
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:38,720
portion of the uap

762
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:42,080
report which is okay you know

763
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:44,880
there's chinese and russian tech and

764
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:46,640
some of it the report said

765
00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,919
might be attributable to to them uh

766
00:30:52,870 --> 00:30:51,840
there is top secret tech and it said

767
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:52,880
that we shouldn't

768
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:55,840
be be be diverted by that because it

769
00:30:58,549 --> 00:30:56,559
isn't that

770
00:30:59,909 --> 00:30:58,559
well you know i would say they would say

771
00:31:04,070 --> 00:30:59,919
that wouldn't they

772
00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:04,080
um but the real stuff is the

773
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,960
anomalous technology that we're all

774
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:08,159
interested in you know all of that

775
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:09,760
sightings report that

776
00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:11,840
that's the elephant in the room that's

777
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:13,120
the stuff that

778
00:31:16,870 --> 00:31:15,279
people really want to talk about it's

779
00:31:19,029 --> 00:31:16,880
the stuff that

780
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:19,039
the authors of the uap report at least

781
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:20,559
in the unclassified version were

782
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:21,760
skirting around

783
00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:25,679
and wouldn't name as so strange that it

784
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:28,960
couldn't possibly have come from here

785
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:30,880
you know that's the stuff we all want to

786
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:32,080
know about right

787
00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:35,919
and it should be i think dealt with

788
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:39,200
in the same way that we dealt with

789
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:42,559
that real secret stuff that emerged

790
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:45,200
you know out of the second world war and

791
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:46,399
and and since

792
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:49,440
going back nearly 80 years

793
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,559
yeah sorry you must have had a

794
00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,720
premonition back in 2005 about what the

795
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,480
report was going to say

796
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:58,399
because um in the documentary that you

797
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:00,000
made at that time you used this

798
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:02,480
quote you said who you share airspace

799
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:04,000
with when you're traveling at twice the

800
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:04,960
speed of sound

801
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:07,519
is literally a matter of life and death

802
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:09,039
now that's effectively what the report

803
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:10,559
said about the risk to airmen

804
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:13,600
and sorry aircrew inside the exercise

805
00:32:15,909 --> 00:32:15,039
areas when they have these mystery

806
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,919
aircraft or

807
00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:17,279
objects or whatever they are flying

808
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:19,600
around so yes you're a bit of a kind of

809
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:22,960
a fortune teller there weren't you well

810
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,990
or special claim to you know any sort of

811
00:32:38,310 --> 00:32:35,120
foresight or

812
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:38,320
or premonition per se but

813
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:40,080
you know the one thing that i am glad

814
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:42,480
about is that what the

815
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,960
what the uap report has done is that it

816
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:46,080
has

817
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:49,519
allowed for a discussion on this

818
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:51,120
um and actually give let's give credit

819
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:52,960
to the us navy here

820
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,240
who um in 2019

821
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:58,399
opened up its channels of reporting to

822
00:33:02,310 --> 00:32:59,760
allow this

823
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:02,320
to like to allow sightings anomalous

824
00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:04,159
sightings data to be

825
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:07,600
uh openly uh allowed in

826
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:11,760
in in um in in reporting

827
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:14,960
um and what that has done is

828
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:16,799
actually opened the doors as we all know

829
00:33:20,149 --> 00:33:18,399
to it is you know the kind of discussion

830
00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:20,159
that we're having here and now

831
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:22,720
which i couldn't possibly have had 20

832
00:33:26,710 --> 00:33:24,240
years ago uh

833
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,720
when i was uh when i written the hunt

834
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:28,720
for zero point or actually indeed when i

835
00:33:32,389 --> 00:33:30,159
was really doing

836
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:32,399
you know that documentary uh for history

837
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,399
channel and channel four in 2005

838
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:38,399
even there i had to be incredibly

839
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:40,320
careful about the phraseology that i

840
00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:41,200
used

841
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,039
for my own professional safeguarding

842
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,279
yeah you know everyone talks about oh

843
00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:48,960
the me you know the mainstream media

844
00:33:51,269 --> 00:33:50,240
covers up and it's part of the

845
00:33:57,669 --> 00:33:51,279
conspiracy

846
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:57,679
um fear and ridicule you know it's very

847
00:34:02,870 --> 00:33:59,840
tangible if you have a career

848
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:02,880
that is that is built on you know a

849
00:34:07,269 --> 00:34:04,960
so-called reputation

850
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:07,279
whether you are in the media or in

851
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:08,879
science

852
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:12,079
or any other field uh and and if you

853
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:13,040
perceive that

854
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:17,119
that is going to be attacked because of

855
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,359
you know something anomalous that is

856
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:21,200
taboo that you're talking about

857
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,200
you know that that gets you very nervous

858
00:34:26,550 --> 00:34:25,440
so i wanted to be as explicit as i

859
00:34:29,109 --> 00:34:26,560
possibly could

860
00:34:31,349 --> 00:34:29,119
in that documentary but at the same time

861
00:34:33,909 --> 00:34:31,359
i had self-imposed rules

862
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,919
on me that didn't allow me to cross

863
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:35,359
certain frontiers

864
00:34:38,869 --> 00:34:37,760
um and actually the the the strange

865
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:38,879
thing is

866
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:42,399
um now it can be told is that channel 4

867
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:44,879
here put a lot of pressure on me to make

868
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:46,079
that documentary

869
00:34:52,869 --> 00:34:49,919
about um about terrestrial

870
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:52,879
about terrestrial explanations you know

871
00:34:57,349 --> 00:34:54,320
we were

872
00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:57,359
under pressure as as the filmmakers

873
00:35:01,670 --> 00:35:00,480
to say that it was terrestrial and if

874
00:35:05,349 --> 00:35:01,680
you remember

875
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:05,359
i at the end said that whilst i was

876
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:06,160
happy

877
00:35:10,950 --> 00:35:09,680
to try and pick off those portions of

878
00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:10,960
sightings

879
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:14,839
that i could using my professional

880
00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:17,280
technological background and knowledge

881
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:20,560
which was the way you could

882
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:23,599
say that possibly these sightings

883
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:26,880
were down to secret tech military tech

884
00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:30,560
at the end of the film i say

885
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,680
but these cannot explain for all the

886
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:35,119
sightings

887
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:38,000
because the data then was really clear

888
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:39,119
to me

889
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:41,839
as it is manifestly to anyone who sort

890
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:43,119
of looks at this sense

891
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:46,960
i think that the anomalous stuff

892
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:50,160
is real and it constitutes

893
00:35:54,069 --> 00:35:53,200
the primary area that we should be

894
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,079
looking at

895
00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:55,920
and which the uap report should be

896
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:57,119
looking at

897
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:58,880
and i hope that if we get beyond the

898
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:00,320
language of

899
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,079
you know what it said which was this was

900
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:03,920
a preliminary report

901
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:07,119
let's hope that the ones down the line

902
00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:10,320
down the stream um will

903
00:36:13,349 --> 00:36:12,320
be non-preliminary reports that are

904
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:13,359
going to

905
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:16,560
seriously discuss that and i hope to not

906
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:17,119
just

907
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:20,160
actually not even hope let's

908
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:23,520
make this a discussion that

909
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,560
is not entirely in the black world

910
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:28,560
in fact as little of it in the black

911
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:31,040
world as is possible would be fantastic

912
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:32,640
because then you can bring in all the

913
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:34,160
other aspects of science

914
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:36,079
that need to be brought to bear on this

915
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:37,359
would it be great if

916
00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:40,160
in these reports they just completely

917
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:40,960
took out the

918
00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:43,200
option of foreign tech or our tech

919
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:44,960
because we don't care

920
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,160
you know it's like unidentified this

921
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:50,320
okay so the report is just on

922
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:51,520
unidentifieds

923
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:54,480
and and what we have or don't have you

924
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:54,720
know

925
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:57,040
yeah when they continuously throw in

926
00:37:02,790 --> 00:36:58,720
other things like that

927
00:37:04,390 --> 00:37:02,800
it just goes back to muddying the waters

928
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:04,400
it does but also you've got to remember

929
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:05,520
we were talking about where you were

930
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:07,520
talking about um government

931
00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:09,680
black projects and military black

932
00:37:12,950 --> 00:37:11,119
projects but we must remember the

933
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:12,960
aerospace companies are

934
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,280
they're great with secrecy you know and

935
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:17,119
they have very little oversight either

936
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,440
so

937
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:19,200
i mean you've got to remember that

938
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,560
aspect of things as well because

939
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:22,000
you know they've been involved in

940
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,320
projects for decades as well

941
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:26,160
so there's that third option there which

942
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:28,320
i think a lot of people sometimes

943
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:31,440
forget about certainly and you know

944
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:32,800
there were some

945
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,079
notable omissions uh from the report

946
00:37:39,750 --> 00:37:38,640
uh clearly the aerospace and defense

947
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,760
companies weren't

948
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:41,359
brought into the equation in the

949
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:43,119
unclassified version yeah

950
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:46,240
um you know when i was uh when i was

951
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:47,839
aerospace editor at james defence weekly

952
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:48,400
of course i

953
00:37:51,589 --> 00:37:49,839
got to know those companies very well in

954
00:37:55,349 --> 00:37:51,599
fact i still know them

955
00:37:57,910 --> 00:37:55,359
pretty well um and

956
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:57,920
so yeah uh you know there's been a lot

957
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:01,520
of speculation as to what might be held

958
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:04,640
in terms of technology and you know

959
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,680
crash retrieval type items by

960
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:09,520
private enterprise in other words

961
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:11,839
private aerospace and defense companies

962
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:13,599
that's possible i mean if you're gonna

963
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:15,920
if you're gonna hide something somewhere

964
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:18,160
put it possibly into private industry

965
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:19,680
that might be one thing

966
00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:22,400
so the report also um you know there are

967
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:24,000
other agencies

968
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:26,400
which uh didn't enter the report the

969
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:28,480
department of energy for example

970
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:33,040
is uh you know a a massive um

971
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,599
uh progenitor of of early tech

972
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:40,079
breakthrough startup stuff and

973
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:41,599
especially when it comes to nro

974
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:44,880
sorry sorry i'm sorry nro at all

975
00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:47,920
nick oh the nra national reconnaissance

976
00:38:51,109 --> 00:38:48,560
office

977
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:51,119
is responsible for spy satellites

978
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:52,400
essentially

979
00:38:58,950 --> 00:38:56,400
so they might have some

980
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:58,960
hold on the data but they wouldn't have

981
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,160
a hold on the tech

982
00:39:05,349 --> 00:39:02,960
per se then what they do is they just

983
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:05,359
pass the data to the spy agencies who do

984
00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:05,680
the

985
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:07,760
analysis all right i was just going to

986
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:09,280
mention about the department of energy

987
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:10,640
that we know that they have had very

988
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:12,480
little oversight in comparison

989
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,520
with the dod for quite some time now and

990
00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:16,800
i think there is something in the works

991
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:18,960
to actually get that changed so that

992
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,280
you know they have more oversight from

993
00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:23,599
from whatever departments than that

994
00:39:27,990 --> 00:39:25,440
but then i think there are still places

995
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:28,000
like department homeland security i

996
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:29,680
think they need looking into a lot more

997
00:39:33,349 --> 00:39:30,480
you know

998
00:39:34,390 --> 00:39:33,359
um i think the focus is not being

999
00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:34,400
broadened enough

1000
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:37,599
especially with the uap tf um but let's

1001
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,960
hope that maybe something changes in the

1002
00:39:43,109 --> 00:39:40,079
future and

1003
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:43,119
given time budget staffing they'll be

1004
00:39:46,870 --> 00:39:44,800
able to do that and not be given these

1005
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:46,880
limitations like 180 days and things

1006
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:47,599
like that

1007
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:49,359
i think that's going to be vital in

1008
00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:51,280
going forward

1009
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:53,920
yeah i definitely i i agree and you know

1010
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:55,440
again let's just hope that this is a

1011
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:56,800
beginning

1012
00:40:02,470 --> 00:40:00,640
and that uh

1013
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,480
where the discussion as it opens up goes

1014
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:04,079
into all of this and and

1015
00:40:07,510 --> 00:40:06,560
you know i do feel that that the door

1016
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,520
has been

1017
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:09,119
opened more than a crack now you know

1018
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:11,520
once you've once you've opened the door

1019
00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:13,440
it's very difficult to shut it again

1020
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:15,680
and i think we're going to see that i

1021
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:17,440
mean clearly there will be people who

1022
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:18,319
will

1023
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:19,599
you know do all the things that we've

1024
00:40:22,309 --> 00:40:21,119
been talking about over the last half an

1025
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:22,319
hour or so which is

1026
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:25,520
try and spirit the really dark and

1027
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:26,800
interesting stuff into

1028
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:29,839
corners where it never gets seen i mean

1029
00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:33,040
you know let's let's remember um

1030
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,480
when when watergate happened

1031
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:39,119
uh and that opened up a conversation

1032
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:40,240
about

1033
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:43,760
uh the intelligence agencies that had

1034
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:45,280
looked into

1035
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:48,079
um civilian groups and spied on civilian

1036
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:49,520
groups in the u.s

1037
00:40:54,150 --> 00:40:52,800
uh and then when the cia and others were

1038
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:54,160
called to account

1039
00:41:01,829 --> 00:40:58,240
uh to congress i think in around 75

1040
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:01,839
um mysteriously there was a

1041
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:05,200
fire in the archives of the cia that

1042
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:08,240
dealt with all the mind control stuff

1043
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:12,800
oh wow mk ultra so you know

1044
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:15,040
sort of what i'm trying to get out of my

1045
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:16,319
head

1046
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:18,560
as we say all of this is you know i have

1047
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:20,560
this sort of image of files being

1048
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:22,400
shredded and burned

1049
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:25,520
almost as we speak to you know prevent

1050
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,720
that happening because

1051
00:41:29,829 --> 00:41:28,400
right if congress is going to do its

1052
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:29,839
thing

1053
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:31,920
then it is going to you know the the

1054
00:41:36,309 --> 00:41:33,200
sort of the

1055
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:36,319
the the the natural progression of

1056
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,040
things

1057
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:39,359
is that it is going to start subpoenaing

1058
00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:40,079
people

1059
00:41:44,950 --> 00:41:42,880
to appear before them and and and

1060
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:44,960
forcing them to tell

1061
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:47,520
congress what they know that's a great

1062
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:52,630
yeah it's all it's everything is

1063
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:54,319
everything's playful

1064
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:56,000
what kind of emphasis do you place on

1065
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:58,880
the the the admitted lack of

1066
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:01,599
technical and analysis kind of know-how

1067
00:42:03,990 --> 00:42:02,400
that they have

1068
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:04,000
to try and work out what's going on

1069
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:05,280
because they actually do mention a

1070
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:06,720
deficit in the report

1071
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:08,960
yeah that they have don't they um that

1072
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:10,720
they know that they can't even work out

1073
00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:12,560
what some of these things might well be

1074
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:14,000
because they don't have the processes in

1075
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:16,160
hand to be able to do it

1076
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:19,200
well you know the the the

1077
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:23,040
entity that is most

1078
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:26,000
notable from its absence in the report

1079
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:27,760
is the u.s air force

1080
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:31,599
yeah fabulous um sort of

1081
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:35,359
uh catch-all uh line

1082
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:38,079
that lets it or or seeks to let it

1083
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:39,760
phenomenally off the hook

1084
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:42,720
yeah uh and that says that um

1085
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:44,720
contributors words it's sort of words to

1086
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:45,920
the effect that

1087
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,440
uh the us air force noting the

1088
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:52,480
um the the the way in which the u.s

1089
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:55,760
navy had uh noted

1090
00:42:58,870 --> 00:42:57,520
that there was something to be studied

1091
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,880
here thought

1092
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:01,440
that in november 2020 it might be a good

1093
00:43:04,710 --> 00:43:03,359
idea to start studying the phenomenon

1094
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:04,720
itself

1095
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:08,800
i mean it's ingenuous

1096
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:12,079
um and you know i i i have no

1097
00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:14,319
i you know i i loved the time that i

1098
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:15,920
spent with the u.s air force

1099
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:19,280
i they they they opened their doors

1100
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:22,160
it opened its doors uh royally to me you

1101
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:23,359
know when i was

1102
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:25,760
an editor at jane's and i have no beef

1103
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:26,560
against it

1104
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:30,560
but that is just a specious

1105
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,160
meaningful way of

1106
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:36,240
saying we've only just started to study

1107
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:37,200
the phenomenon

1108
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:39,839
no it hasn't project blue book was doing

1109
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:40,400
this stuff

1110
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:44,319
way back in the 1950s

1111
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:48,720
so uh and whatever it might have said

1112
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,720
and you know other reports i think like

1113
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:52,880
the the condon report that came out that

1114
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:54,319
said you know nothing to see here

1115
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,440
effectively

1116
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:58,319
uh we all know that that's just not true

1117
00:44:01,030 --> 00:43:59,200
yep

1118
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:01,040
yeah graham actually just mentioned that

1119
00:44:06,230 --> 00:44:02,800
his latest article in

1120
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:06,240
shadows magazine yes

1121
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:10,160
well great magazine by the way fantastic

1122
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:13,200
keep keep that up that's brilliant okay

1123
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:13,520
so

1124
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:15,440
the article i published was about calvin

1125
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:16,560
which you'll see

1126
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,480
you'll know about the 1990 object that

1127
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,000
was seen in scotland

1128
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:22,720
and it's also um talks about gas pipe

1129
00:44:28,230 --> 00:44:25,359
the mystery aircraft of uh california

1130
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:28,240
the one that dropped in from 90 000 feet

1131
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:29,040
or whatever

1132
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:32,079
um so one day and all they have is just

1133
00:44:37,030 --> 00:44:32,800
uh

1134
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,040
with the with the crew of the of this

1135
00:44:41,349 --> 00:44:39,040
aircraft or whatever it was and then

1136
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:41,359
also they talk about the boscom down

1137
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:45,040
machine from september 1994 um which

1138
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:47,839
apparently was av6 air vehicle 6 the

1139
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:48,960
astra

1140
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,480
which of course you have a story about

1141
00:44:56,550 --> 00:44:55,349
well actually weirdly i've got a story

1142
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:56,560
about both because

1143
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,359
um uh i was contacted

1144
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:02,880
soon after i think i think air

1145
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:05,040
international first broke

1146
00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:07,599
news of the uh of the boscom down

1147
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:08,560
incident

1148
00:45:13,190 --> 00:45:10,720
which uh sean if you're not familiar

1149
00:45:15,829 --> 00:45:13,200
with um

1150
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,839
okay to give you a sense of what's going

1151
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:17,680
on is sort of our version of

1152
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:20,640
kind of sort of edwards air force base

1153
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:22,240
and it's in the west country

1154
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:25,200
uh it's not far from stonehenge in fact

1155
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:25,520
and

1156
00:45:33,270 --> 00:45:31,680
sort of tipped off about this i tried to

1157
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,280
get as many details as i could

1158
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:34,800
about what had happened and there was

1159
00:45:38,710 --> 00:45:36,720
lots of obfuscation going on

1160
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:38,720
like the mod was saying oh we had to

1161
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,079
close the

1162
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:42,720
the the the the road that runs next to

1163
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:44,240
boscom down down

1164
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:47,680
because uh an aircraft had a

1165
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:50,240
had a tote decoy out behind it stuck on

1166
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:51,280
a sort of

1167
00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:54,160
500 wire that was in danger of flying

1168
00:45:57,670 --> 00:45:55,200
across the

1169
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,680
the highway and sort of taking a few

1170
00:46:03,270 --> 00:45:59,599
bars with it

1171
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,280
which turned out to be not exactly true

1172
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:06,720
um and certainly

1173
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:09,440
but but in the end so i couldn't stand

1174
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:09,760
this

1175
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:11,200
to give you an idea of sort of the

1176
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:12,800
mechanism of

1177
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:15,040
trade journalism i couldn't stand the

1178
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:16,079
story up

1179
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:19,040
to the satisfaction of my publication

1180
00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:20,640
jane's defense weekly which had a very

1181
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:21,680
high bar

1182
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:24,800
for accuracy and rigor i could however

1183
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:26,480
sell it to the sunday telegraph which

1184
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:29,359
was a

1185
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:31,280
very respectable paper here in the uk

1186
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:33,359
but but um

1187
00:46:42,630 --> 00:46:35,280
the reporting sort of standards weren't

1188
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,640
quite as rigorous as they were james

1189
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:44,480
the headline that sunday telegraph ran

1190
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:46,000
in the end was uh

1191
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:48,480
top secret u.s spy plane crashes on

1192
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:51,119
stonehenge

1193
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,760
um which gives you just sort of some

1194
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:54,960
idea of anyway

1195
00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:58,800
that that was the possibility but then i

1196
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:01,359
uh i think the the story you're

1197
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:02,640
referring to graham

1198
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:08,640
was uh in i think 1996 or 97

1199
00:47:13,670 --> 00:47:12,160
uh i had gained

1200
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:13,680
permission from the lockheed martin

1201
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:15,280
skunk works to interview one of its

1202
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:16,560
bosses

1203
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:20,000
um inside the palmdale headquarters

1204
00:47:22,549 --> 00:47:20,480
itself

1205
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:22,559
which is which is kind of rare i would

1206
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,680
have actually it was so rare i was

1207
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:28,400
really surprised not just because i'm a

1208
00:47:32,870 --> 00:47:30,000
brit

1209
00:47:34,790 --> 00:47:32,880
uh but but to my knowledge no journalist

1210
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:34,800
had ever been allowed into

1211
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:37,760
that portion of the building certainly

1212
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:39,520
in sort of recent memory

1213
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:41,599
so i went and did the interview uh with

1214
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:43,440
a guy who was then head of the skunk

1215
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:44,880
works called jack gordon

1216
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:47,440
we talked about lots of stuff skirted

1217
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:49,119
around you know the normal

1218
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:51,440
uh things about what you can and cannot

1219
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,800
say for him

1220
00:47:57,030 --> 00:47:54,960
um and then as i was coming out of the

1221
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:57,040
the the interview finished and as i was

1222
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:58,880
coming out of the facility

1223
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:01,920
uh we passed a sort of um

1224
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:05,280
lobby central hallway area

1225
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:08,400
entrance and there is a there was a

1226
00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:08,960
large

1227
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:11,920
uh chart that showed the uh sort of

1228
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:14,880
lineage of skunk works projects

1229
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,400
and you know knowing a bit about

1230
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,480
aircraft i could see that

1231
00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:20,400
uh at the bottom was something that had

1232
00:48:23,670 --> 00:48:22,160
been skunked have done in world war ii

1233
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:23,680
and at the top right hand corner

1234
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:26,160
was well actually this was the thing it

1235
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:28,079
wasn't what i expected it to be

1236
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:31,760
it was something called astro

1237
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:34,079
astra sort of looked very sort of pokey

1238
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:35,359
and pointy

1239
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:38,720
and i said to my escort pr escort i said

1240
00:48:42,630 --> 00:48:41,280
uh can we stop and talk about that

1241
00:48:45,030 --> 00:48:42,640
what's astra

1242
00:48:46,309 --> 00:48:45,040
at that point i was bundled very quickly

1243
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:46,319
out of the building

1244
00:48:50,230 --> 00:48:48,800
and uh rather like an annoying child in

1245
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:50,240
the back of a car

1246
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:52,960
uh asking when are we gonna get there i

1247
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:53,920
said

1248
00:48:59,109 --> 00:48:56,720
to my escort uh what's astro what's

1249
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:59,119
astra what's astra over and over again

1250
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:00,880
um he said well why don't you email me

1251
00:49:03,829 --> 00:49:02,640
when you get back to the uk which i did

1252
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:03,839
persistently

1253
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,720
and then i was given a very hokey uh

1254
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:08,559
explanation that astra was an

1255
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,480
airliner project that lockheed martin

1256
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:12,720
skunk worked had studied in the 1970s

1257
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:13,119
and then

1258
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,160
canned which was patently not true

1259
00:49:20,309 --> 00:49:18,880
um but years later i i talked to skunk

1260
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:20,319
works officials later and i said what

1261
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:21,359
had happened

1262
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:25,040
uh why why why that happened

1263
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:28,000
um and he said well we screwed up um we

1264
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:28,319
we

1265
00:49:37,109 --> 00:49:35,040
should never have seen that chart

1266
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:37,119
as much as i want to believe that there

1267
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:38,800
is another version to this story which

1268
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:40,400
was when i checked my diary

1269
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:43,760
some years later to to see when this had

1270
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:44,079
been

1271
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,599
i noticed that the day i went to the

1272
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:47,280
skunk works and did this interview was

1273
00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:48,960
on april the 1st

1274
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:52,480
so and you know

1275
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:54,400
intelligence agencies are not past doing

1276
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:56,559
that i mean i'm not saying

1277
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,480
playing a joke on you on april fool's

1278
00:50:02,549 --> 00:50:00,240
day which perhaps they were

1279
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:02,559
but i'm thinking there would have been

1280
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:03,920
or possibly

1281
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:07,599
is still great utility in making

1282
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,480
america's near-peer adversaries believe

1283
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,520
that

1284
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,200
there is something there when there

1285
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:15,040
isn't and and look who was the

1286
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:18,240
um unwitting patsy in

1287
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:21,839
uh in getting that story out there me

1288
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:24,480
so you know in all sincerity so these

1289
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:25,200
things happen

1290
00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:27,440
and and that's why it is a miasma of

1291
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:28,800
misinformation

1292
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:31,119
and disinformation i was waiting for all

1293
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:32,000
the tr-3b

1294
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:33,440
comments to start coming up in the

1295
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:35,040
comment section there because as soon as

1296
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:36,079
they asked her everyone's like

1297
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:49,270
is the possibilities of traveling

1298
00:50:54,309 --> 00:50:52,800
through your quantum consciousness

1299
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:54,319
just before you guys say that i've got

1300
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:56,079
to dip out i'm afraid i've got a

1301
00:50:59,349 --> 00:50:58,000
podcast to record i'm really sorry but

1302
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:59,359
nick it's been a pleasure speaking to

1303
00:51:05,349 --> 00:50:59,839
you

1304
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:05,359
sean so much man really

1305
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:08,319
yeah you guys enjoy yeah enjoy the rest

1306
00:51:11,589 --> 00:51:09,839
of your conversation and uh

1307
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,599
take care guys thank you so much thank

1308
00:51:16,630 --> 00:51:14,000
you thank you

1309
00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:16,640
go uh subscribe to his channel the

1310
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:17,760
disclosure team

1311
00:51:22,950 --> 00:51:20,880
uh he's become a good friend of mine and

1312
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,960
uh he interviewed some great guests so

1313
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,079
check it out

1314
00:51:28,309 --> 00:51:26,559
yeah so thanks uh for uh you know

1315
00:51:31,030 --> 00:51:28,319
allowing guests to come on

1316
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:31,040
um what i did what yeah i wanted to ask

1317
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:32,079
you

1318
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:36,880
possibility of

1319
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:41,119
consciousness nuts and bolts together

1320
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:42,640
you know that kind of that kind of

1321
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:44,800
system that kind of

1322
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:48,160
ship or however you have it to travel

1323
00:51:52,390 --> 00:51:50,240
interstellar do you think is that

1324
00:51:56,069 --> 00:51:52,400
possible are there any hints

1325
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:56,079
of people doing that that you know of

1326
00:52:01,750 --> 00:51:59,200
well um it may seem really

1327
00:52:02,790 --> 00:52:01,760
outside my sort of purview you know

1328
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,800
given everything that

1329
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:04,559
we've been talking about but you know

1330
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:06,400
right right way back at the beginning of

1331
00:52:11,349 --> 00:52:08,640
this sean you know i mentioned that

1332
00:52:11,829 --> 00:52:11,359
i'm a novelist as well as you know i

1333
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:11,839
know you're

1334
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,960
non-fiction work that i do so the i the

1335
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:15,599
this

1336
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:18,160
novel that i wrote in published about a

1337
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:20,000
year ago called the grid

1338
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,200
does look very much into that sort of

1339
00:52:25,990 --> 00:52:24,640
battle space that we

1340
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,000
talked about which is the sort of the

1341
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:28,000
consciousness battle space

1342
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:31,520
and i mentioned too that the family of

1343
00:52:36,069 --> 00:52:33,040
ingo swan had asked me to

1344
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:36,079
um edit this lost manuscript two lost

1345
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:37,520
manuscripts of his which i

1346
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:40,400
i did so consciousness interests me

1347
00:52:44,549 --> 00:52:41,280
deeply

1348
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:44,559
um and in answer that question uh i mean

1349
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:46,640
ingo himself who was

1350
00:52:53,190 --> 00:52:49,680
you know the cia's premier

1351
00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:53,200
remote viewer for a long while um

1352
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:56,400
ingo had when he wasn't uh remote

1353
00:52:58,790 --> 00:52:58,000
viewing for the cia he was doing other

1354
00:53:01,990 --> 00:52:58,800
stuff

1355
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:02,000
um he did a remote

1356
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:05,760
probe of mars and

1357
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:08,800
latin and jupiter um

1358
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:12,000
and in fact there's a really interesting

1359
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:17,680
account um in the swan archive which is

1360
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:19,359
now held at the department of

1361
00:53:25,349 --> 00:53:21,839
parapsychology at the university of

1362
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:25,359
uh of georgia um

1363
00:53:30,069 --> 00:53:28,960
ingo uh

1364
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:30,079
is talking about these planetary

1365
00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:32,240
planetary probes that he did

1366
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,559
and uh there was a that he was asked to

1367
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,079
do a remote

1368
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:41,280
view probing of jupiter

1369
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:44,640
and when he came back he said um all

1370
00:53:48,790 --> 00:53:47,119
kinds of things about jupiter itself but

1371
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:48,800
the interesting thing was he said

1372
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:51,920
um there's a ring around it and everyone

1373
00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:52,240
went

1374
00:53:57,910 --> 00:53:55,440
you've got the wrong planet ingo and

1375
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:57,920
he went no no no there is a ring around

1376
00:54:02,150 --> 00:53:58,880
jupiter

1377
00:54:02,630 --> 00:54:02,160
and um i think about nine months later

1378
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:02,640
the

1379
00:54:09,349 --> 00:54:05,760
nasa uh interplanetary

1380
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:09,359
pro mariner 4 i think it was um

1381
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:11,520
no mate well it was another it was a a

1382
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:12,960
satellite or some a probe of some

1383
00:54:16,710 --> 00:54:13,920
description

1384
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:16,720
approaches um jupiter and lo and behold

1385
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:17,839
it finds

1386
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:21,119
a ring of uh debris around

1387
00:54:26,309 --> 00:54:24,160
jupiter so um you know was that a

1388
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:26,319
coincidence well it might have been but

1389
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:29,760
um the question is

1390
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:33,440
that form of travel travel is possible

1391
00:54:40,309 --> 00:54:36,880
um perhaps that opens up a broader

1392
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:40,319
discussion which is uh

1393
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:43,920
you know are the in an exploration

1394
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:47,040
of other consciousnesses and

1395
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:50,960
other intelligences that uh perhaps

1396
00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:54,799
should be uh discussed in the uap

1397
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:57,920
report um how

1398
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:01,440
might they be aligned to that facet

1399
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:04,640
in us or that facet of consciousness

1400
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:07,280
that allowed ingo to go and do those

1401
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:09,040
that planetary probe

1402
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:12,640
um are we able to make contact with

1403
00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:14,640
other consciousnesses other

1404
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:16,160
intelligences

1405
00:55:23,510 --> 00:55:20,000
that perhaps bespeak um

1406
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:23,520
realms that we cannot perceive with our

1407
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:27,440
uh with our five senses um ingo

1408
00:55:31,109 --> 00:55:29,920
in his lost manuscripts and in other

1409
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:31,119
writings

1410
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:33,040
maintained that that was absolutely the

1411
00:55:38,309 --> 00:55:35,200
case and actually if we

1412
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:38,319
look at what some of those

1413
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:41,200
former uh directors of national

1414
00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:43,040
intelligence were saying in the run-up

1415
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:44,400
to the report

1416
00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:48,559
um mrs ratcliffe and brennan

1417
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:51,520
i believe it was brennan who was saying

1418
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:51,920
that

1419
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:57,200
already beginning to emerge

1420
00:56:00,549 --> 00:55:59,119
and which presumably he had had some

1421
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:00,559
purview over

1422
00:56:08,309 --> 00:56:04,640
as uh as an intelligence boss um

1423
00:56:11,829 --> 00:56:08,319
suggested that the sightings data that

1424
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:11,839
subsequently went into the uaptf report

1425
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:14,880
uh could have been associated and

1426
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:18,160
perhaps was associated with other forms

1427
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:19,359
of intelligence

1428
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:21,359
in other words talking about you know

1429
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,880
hold on you know for sure that he was

1430
00:56:25,829 --> 00:56:24,640
talking about the ones referenced in the

1431
00:56:32,630 --> 00:56:25,839
report

1432
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:34,069
i mean this was he was talking about

1433
00:56:38,309 --> 00:56:36,000
this before the report came out so

1434
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:38,319
ross may have had some access to it i

1435
00:56:43,589 --> 00:56:40,079
actually read it more as

1436
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:43,599
just based on what i know john

1437
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:46,960
john brennan uh yeah no but still

1438
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:50,559
this is what i think the data to be uh

1439
00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:54,079
um uh symptomatic of you know perhaps

1440
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:56,480
some interaction with some other form of

1441
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:57,440
intelligence

1442
00:57:03,990 --> 00:57:00,480
um that in itself is is another i'm sure

1443
00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:04,000
um you know it's another

1444
00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:12,630
why doesn't this blow up and just become

1445
00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:13,680
like crazy

1446
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:16,000
like why isn't that a viral clip you

1447
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:17,760
know of him saying that

1448
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:20,880
to the point where like suburbia starts

1449
00:57:25,589 --> 00:57:22,640
going

1450
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:25,599
yeah yeah you know did you hear that i

1451
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:26,160
mean

1452
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:28,160
he's the guy that protected your country

1453
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:29,520
for so long

1454
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:32,000
you know yeah i don't know i mean it's a

1455
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:33,680
really good question i think

1456
00:57:41,589 --> 00:57:37,440
you know we we've become inured to

1457
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:41,599
big news i mean we are so bombed by

1458
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:45,040
uh stuff online and we you know

1459
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:47,760
we we're now in an era where we have no

1460
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:51,599
idea really whether it's true or fake

1461
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:55,280
you know so so so what if a former

1462
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,440
intelligence boss says that he thinks

1463
00:58:01,589 --> 00:57:59,280
that aliens are amongst us

1464
00:58:04,150 --> 00:58:01,599
or may be interacting with us it just it

1465
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:04,160
just goes by as another bit of

1466
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:07,200
a bit of more folklore graham do you

1467
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:08,960
have any questions yeah

1468
00:58:12,630 --> 00:58:10,880
for years people have always just looked

1469
00:58:14,309 --> 00:58:12,640
at them as either being aliens or

1470
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,319
it's all a hoax there's never been

1471
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:16,160
anything in between so

1472
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,440
the fact that you know you have all

1473
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:19,599
these other possibilities time travelers

1474
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:20,960
ultra terrestrials

1475
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:23,680
consciousness anything like that it sort

1476
00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:25,520
of falls between the cracks between

1477
00:58:28,549 --> 00:58:27,280
you know they either aliens or people

1478
00:58:30,630 --> 00:58:28,559
are making things up

1479
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:30,640
so people can't even get their head

1480
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:32,079
around the aliens

1481
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:33,680
possibility so how are they going to

1482
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:35,920
work out all the rest of it you know

1483
00:58:38,789 --> 00:58:36,880
they're just yeah

1484
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:38,799
it's too much for a lot of people and

1485
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:39,920
they just shut down

1486
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,559
um you know everybody here must know and

1487
00:58:44,950 --> 00:58:43,760
the audience must know

1488
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:44,960
people who have tried to talk to you

1489
00:58:48,829 --> 00:58:47,200
about this and then you just see their

1490
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:48,839
eyes glaze over

1491
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:51,680
um exactly yeah so true

1492
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:53,839
that's so true there is just there needs

1493
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:56,319
to be and it's difficult you know we

1494
00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,480
we live in an era of bite-sized media

1495
00:59:04,470 --> 00:59:02,640
chunky news and and if it isn't if it's

1496
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:04,480
more nuanced than that you know people

1497
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:05,920
lose patience with

1498
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:09,200
the issue and they you know go off

1499
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:12,319
but this deserves to be

1500
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:14,720
treated with that level of respect you

1501
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:15,359
know it is

1502
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:18,400
extremely nuanced as you say gren yeah i

1503
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:19,520
mean i think it is

1504
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:23,280
and and i think it does to speak a range

1505
00:59:28,069 --> 00:59:24,240
of different

1506
00:59:30,069 --> 00:59:28,079
options um in terms of

1507
00:59:31,589 --> 00:59:30,079
you know what those intelligences might

1508
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,599
be and

1509
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:34,319
you know again i've seen quite a lot of

1510
00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:36,960
stuff in the last few days about

1511
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:40,240
um you know that that that chucks all of

1512
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:41,440
this

1513
00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:44,640
out of the park because it does

1514
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:47,200
it specifically just talks about aliens

1515
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:48,480
as being

1516
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:50,480
beings from other planets and therefore

1517
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:51,839
it cannot be

1518
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:55,119
them because you know einstein's theory

1519
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:55,680
of general

1520
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,520
relativity tells us that nothing can

1521
01:00:01,510 --> 00:59:59,200
travel faster than the speed of light

1522
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:01,520
the nearest star system is you know so

1523
01:00:04,390 --> 01:00:02,960
many light years away

1524
01:00:07,109 --> 01:00:04,400
therefore why on earth would these

1525
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:07,119
beings bother making the journey to

1526
01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:08,640
come and see us every other day of the

1527
01:00:17,109 --> 01:00:15,349
uh

1528
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:17,119
it's not invented here syndrome isn't it

1529
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:18,799
it's just because we can't envisage

1530
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:20,319
doing it

1531
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:22,559
it seems impractical to us that doesn't

1532
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,920
mean to say that there's not a way that

1533
01:00:26,630 --> 01:00:25,520
some some other intelligence has worked

1534
01:00:27,829 --> 01:00:26,640
out how to do it

1535
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:27,839
it always seems to be a flaw in an

1536
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:29,760
argument that i think of complete

1537
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:31,520
hypocrisy because

1538
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:34,240
we couldn't imagine these computers you

1539
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:34,559
know

1540
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:38,079
in in our phones very true aircraft even

1541
01:00:42,230 --> 01:00:39,760
aircraft weren't with the headlines in

1542
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:42,240
1903 saying that it would never happen

1543
01:00:49,670 --> 01:00:46,480
and yet it did yeah absolutely very true

1544
01:00:52,470 --> 01:00:49,680
and so it it is

1545
01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:52,480
frustrating to me that that level of

1546
01:00:57,190 --> 01:00:54,960
discussion takes place because

1547
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:57,200
of course we are discussing all of this

1548
01:01:02,150 --> 01:00:59,040
from our world view

1549
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:02,160
um but the the the

1550
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:05,280
the the wonder of it for me

1551
01:01:11,270 --> 01:01:08,880
is what might be and and right

1552
01:01:13,750 --> 01:01:11,280
as i'm you know sort of relentlessly

1553
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:13,760
curious as you know as we all are

1554
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:16,880
um i want to allow myself

1555
01:01:22,309 --> 01:01:18,640
the possibility of believing that there

1556
01:01:24,870 --> 01:01:22,319
are paradigms outside of my worldview

1557
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:24,880
um that will that permit all of these

1558
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,480
things to exist why shouldn't they

1559
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:28,160
that was really well put nick i want to

1560
01:01:32,230 --> 01:01:29,920
allow myself

1561
01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:32,240
you know that's that's really well put

1562
01:01:35,589 --> 01:01:33,680
um because

1563
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:35,599
in that you're not committing to one

1564
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:37,200
thing or another

1565
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,440
you're leaving yourself open to

1566
01:01:43,750 --> 01:01:41,359
potential possibilities

1567
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:43,760
as they come by and i think that's

1568
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:45,920
that's the healthy way to deal with this

1569
01:01:50,309 --> 01:01:48,880
you know but perhaps surely if i can

1570
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:50,319
sort of make a final point

1571
01:01:54,390 --> 01:01:52,880
that's a really good i mean it's a it's

1572
01:01:57,510 --> 01:01:54,400
a great one that you bring up

1573
01:02:01,990 --> 01:01:57,520
because what i think

1574
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:02,000
this subject uh requires and deserves

1575
01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:05,599
is obviously an open mind and and

1576
01:02:12,630 --> 01:02:09,200
to be constantly open um

1577
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:12,640
i i would never want myself to be so

1578
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:16,319
rigid in my view on something or or

1579
01:02:20,549 --> 01:02:19,280
or multiple arguments within the silos

1580
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:20,559
that we've been talking about

1581
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:22,480
that i can never change my position

1582
01:02:26,230 --> 01:02:24,880
right you know i always say to myself

1583
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:26,240
and to others

1584
01:02:29,670 --> 01:02:28,880
i reserve the right to be able to change

1585
01:02:31,990 --> 01:02:29,680
my mind

1586
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:32,000
about particularly about this phenomenon

1587
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,799
because it is so uh

1588
01:02:39,349 --> 01:02:37,280
it is so elusive yeah i reserve the

1589
01:02:42,069 --> 01:02:39,359
right to be able to change my mind on it

1590
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:42,079
at all times why shouldn't i be and i

1591
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:43,119
think that if

1592
01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:45,359
perhaps you know more people approached

1593
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:46,319
it

1594
01:02:53,910 --> 01:02:50,799
wouldn't

1595
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:53,920
you know we science science particularly

1596
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:57,440
would be more forgiving in

1597
01:03:03,670 --> 01:03:00,559
uh in what it was looking at and

1598
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:03,680
allowing for these possibilities uh to

1599
01:03:08,390 --> 01:03:06,720
to to be there and for it to engage in

1600
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:08,400
it in the spirit of

1601
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:11,280
curiosity that science i think should be

1602
01:03:14,549 --> 01:03:12,319
imbued with

1603
01:03:15,670 --> 01:03:14,559
yeah you thought you followed yourself's

1604
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:15,680
always been um

1605
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:17,920
sort of saddled with a kind of these

1606
01:03:20,470 --> 01:03:19,520
entrenched positions that people get

1607
01:03:21,910 --> 01:03:20,480
themselves into

1608
01:03:23,829 --> 01:03:21,920
because the weld themselves to one

1609
01:03:25,829 --> 01:03:23,839
particular theory or one

1610
01:03:27,750 --> 01:03:25,839
you know line of thought and then they

1611
01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:27,760
get so far down that kind of rabbit hole

1612
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:29,599
that even if there's change in events

1613
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:31,599
and more information more data

1614
01:03:35,910 --> 01:03:34,079
they they refuse to take it on board and

1615
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:35,920
and they just come up within wilder and

1616
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:37,039
wilder theories

1617
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:40,079
and trying to support the position

1618
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:43,760
of new information well so mine but um

1619
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:46,400
it's sad really because that the mindset

1620
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:47,920
that you've just described there nick

1621
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:49,680
that is the one to have it's one that

1622
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:51,680
you just you go with the flow

1623
01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:53,039
and you don't you don't have any one

1624
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:54,559
particular position because you end up

1625
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:54,880
doing

1626
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:57,119
that you do end up having to defend it

1627
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,480
at all costs

1628
01:04:01,990 --> 01:04:00,240
because you have a reputation and you

1629
01:04:03,670 --> 01:04:02,000
set up this reputation for yourself

1630
01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:03,680
and then people say well this okay well

1631
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:05,119
this has just happened now

1632
01:04:09,349 --> 01:04:07,280
now how's your position and then you're

1633
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:09,359
lost but people still just dig

1634
01:04:11,829 --> 01:04:10,400
themselves

1635
01:04:15,270 --> 01:04:11,839
they don't forgive you for changing your

1636
01:04:18,470 --> 01:04:15,280
mind you know like they never do it

1637
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:18,480
so true so true yeah absolutely well i

1638
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,079
appreciate your time here

1639
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:22,079
um i had a great time with you i hope

1640
01:04:25,990 --> 01:04:23,440
you come back

1641
01:04:26,870 --> 01:04:26,000
um i'd love to thank you i really

1642
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:26,880
enjoyed it

1643
01:04:31,029 --> 01:04:29,920
yeah um we'll have a one-on-one sometime

1644
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,039
next time too

1645
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:33,520
i love those as well uh today i wanted

1646
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:34,799
to bring some friends in

1647
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:41,599
um that are roundabouts by you

1648
01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:43,760
thank you and well thank you both uh

1649
01:04:47,430 --> 01:04:45,359
anta vinnie as well and uh

1650
01:04:48,870 --> 01:04:47,440
keep up the good work everyone and um

1651
01:04:52,829 --> 01:04:48,880
look forward to the next time

1652
01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:52,839
yeah looking forward to it thanks take

1653
01:04:57,029 --> 01:04:54,559
care um

1654
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:57,039
i put some links for him in the

1655
01:05:01,670 --> 01:04:57,920
description

1656
01:05:03,750 --> 01:05:01,680
um you can buy his book you can watch uh

1657
01:05:04,950 --> 01:05:03,760
some youtube stuff he's got a great

1658
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:04,960
documentary

1659
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:08,079
um that i'm really happy i watched

1660
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:11,760
before this um because

1661
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,720
yeah you need graham you we need

1662
01:05:18,309 --> 01:05:16,000
thinkers like that in the

1663
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:18,319
defense intelligence we do you know

1664
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:20,000
otherwise we also need

1665
01:05:22,870 --> 01:05:21,520
we need people who are journalists as

1666
01:05:24,150 --> 01:05:22,880
well and who are in the heart of the

1667
01:05:25,990 --> 01:05:24,160
profession

1668
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:26,000
and in the heart of the industry and new

1669
01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:28,240
people and new information

1670
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:30,160
and you know who can just tease out

1671
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:31,680
those little bits that

1672
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:33,119
necessary people on the outside don't

1673
01:05:37,990 --> 01:05:34,799
have the expertise to do

1674
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:38,000
so yeah he is invaluable yeah

1675
01:05:43,829 --> 01:05:41,119
it's um yeah otherwise we can just get

1676
01:05:44,789 --> 01:05:43,839
hoodwinked the entire time very easily

1677
01:05:46,230 --> 01:05:44,799
yeah

1678
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:46,240
thank you sean for the invite i

1679
01:05:48,710 --> 01:05:48,079
appreciate that i'll i'll head off as

1680
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:48,720
well

1681
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,640
all right graham yeah i appreciate you

1682
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:52,240
coming by it was a pleasure

1683
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:55,520
you're welcome bye-bye and you can check

1684
01:06:01,270 --> 01:05:57,280
out graham the man

1685
01:06:03,349 --> 01:06:01,280
on instagram um

1686
01:06:05,349 --> 01:06:03,359
i think it's border 750 is that right

1687
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:05,359
let me check it out make sure

1688
01:06:13,109 --> 01:06:08,640
what graham's instagram is

1689
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:13,119
i just realized that graham instagram

1690
01:06:16,390 --> 01:06:14,090
i'm tired

1691
01:06:18,030 --> 01:06:16,400
[Laughter]

1692
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:18,040
all right here we go um

1693
01:06:25,990 --> 01:06:24,549
there it is so you can follow him at

1694
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:26,000
border 750

1695
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:29,760
if you have not done so yet subscribe

1696
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:33,440
and share the youtube stuff um

1697
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:36,079
and i'm on twitter at witness citizen

1698
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:37,440
and instagram

1699
01:06:43,270 --> 01:06:41,039
so follow me if you are so inclined

1700
01:06:44,549 --> 01:06:43,280
i really appreciate you guys coming and

1701
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:44,559
watching this episode

1702
01:06:48,789 --> 01:06:47,440
of witness citizen uap where we had

1703
01:06:49,990 --> 01:06:48,799
vinnie you can check him out at

1704
01:06:51,829 --> 01:06:50,000
disclosure team

1705
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,839
we have graham the man you can see him

1706
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:53,200
here or um

1707
01:06:56,789 --> 01:06:55,839
he's on identified celebrity reviews

1708
01:06:59,589 --> 01:06:56,799
sometimes

1709
01:07:01,510 --> 01:06:59,599
he's working at a great book right now

1710
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,520
too so stay tuned for that

1711
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:03,599
he works hard and is very thorough at

1712
01:07:08,789 --> 01:07:05,039
what he does

1713
01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:08,799
um nick cook great guy um part of this

1714
01:07:13,190 --> 01:07:11,680
i'm doing this podcast uh i really love

1715
01:07:15,349 --> 01:07:13,200
meeting new people

1716
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:15,359
and you know seeing sides and aspects of

1717
01:07:19,190 --> 01:07:16,480
this whole thing that

1718
01:07:21,109 --> 01:07:19,200
i may have not been aware of previously

1719
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:21,119
and today was a great example of that

1720
01:07:27,990 --> 01:07:24,400
so i really appreciate it

1721
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:28,000
now when you go back to the real world

1722
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:32,960
be nice be kind be in love

1723
01:07:42,710 --> 01:07:41,349
hmm anyone got anything to add and what

1724
01:07:44,430 --> 01:07:42,720
else

1725
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:44,440
and another great hour

1726
01:07:48,789 --> 01:07:46,559
[Laughter]

1727
01:07:51,730 --> 01:07:48,799
i'll take that all right sounds good

1728
01:07:54,829 --> 01:07:51,740
deal i appreciate the time